Subject: Test
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 90 14:20:12 EST

Date: Sun, 1 Jul 90 14:20:12 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Test

Please hit 'd' now...

                                        ---Rob

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 90 20:52:31 EST
From: "Robert E. Seastrom" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: free to first response

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 90 20:52:31 EST
From: "Robert E. Seastrom" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: "Anthony A. Datri"'s message of Fri, 22 Jun 90 23:18:36 CDT <9006230418.AA20925@concave>
Subject: free to first response

   From: "Anthony A. Datri" <[email-masked]>

   decsystem10 operationg system command manual (5.07 and 6.01) only if you can
     convince me that you're actually running one

   decsystem10 fortran programmer's manual (fortran-10, v5)

I'd be interested in the DEC-10 stuff; I'm not running one *yet*, but
that's only because the tapes haven't come from Sweden yet.  Would a
copy of my Tops-10 license agreement suit you?

                                        ---Rob

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 90 22:42:22 PDT
From: Lane <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: subscribe

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 90 22:42:22 PDT
From: Lane <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: subscribe

I would like to subscribe to your group.
Address:
[email-masked]
 -or, if that's unreachable-
[email-masked]

From [email-masked] Tue Jul  3 21:13:45 1990
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 12:37:49 PDT
From: [email-masked] ( Lane)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: subscribe

I would like to subscribe to your mailing list.
mail address:
[email-masked]
 --or--(if unreachable)
[email-masked]
Thank you.

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:19:19 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [[email-masked]: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List]

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:19:19 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [[email-masked]: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List]

We are pleased to have Charles Lasner on the PDP8-Lovers mailing list.
I believe he wrote part or most of {P|O}S/8.  He can probably tell you
more.  

Return-Path: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 90 11:00:13 EDT
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] (Robert E. Seastrom)
Subject: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 25 Jun 90 10:47:44 EDT

This is a test reply to e-mail that finally got to me!
Please also reply to me again to prove the loop is closed.  As
insurance, please also reply to me with all things the same as you get
here (cunixf) only with watsun substituted for cunixf, as that's where
I moreso live these days.  I get dual mail, not one forwarded to the
other...
Please tell me what are useful topics you want on this forum, as I only
have a copy of a file (pdp8-lovers-archive) which is from Feb 1989.
I also can heavily participate in the archiving of files, which I would
both collect and make available to all, etc.
I have mucho storage capabilities on my -8, so, without undue bragging,
let me tell you what is relevantly available for file conversion and
storage purposes:
PDP-8/e with 32k
4 TU56/TC08 drives
2 RK05/RK8E drives
2 RX01 compatible (DSD-210 which can actually FORMAT the floppies!)
CIS hardware breakpoint module (fetch/exec stop)
PT8E papertape reader/punch
network interface (homemade interprocessor buffer - high-speed) to
LINC-8 with 4k and dual LINCtape drives.  Server software allows the
PDP-8/e to support LINCtape drives, so I can read/write standard OS/12,
etc. LINCtapes using home-grown handlers that match the LINC-8 server. 
The LINC-8 can also format -12 tapes, but you have to take down the
server...
CESI SCSI bus intelligent host adapter with 2 1.2 mbyte floppies, 80
mbyte winchester, qic-02 tape cartridge backup (40 mbytes), and SyQuest
555 removable high-speed cartridge hard disk drive 44 mbyte per
cartridge.  In case you are not familiar with the SyQuest, I just want
to point out that this really is the best thing since sliced bread... 
It is a 25 ms 2-head 5-1/4" half-height drive 5 volts only.  The
cartrdiges have a two-tiered approach to bad-block mapping that yields
a logical error-free device of length 44.1 mbyte always.  You run
utilities (I wrote) on the cartridge to lock out the bad blocks and
then just use it as a zero-defects device with handlers I wrote for the
prevailing -8 systems and just pretend its another fast hard disk, only
it can be removed in 3 seconds and spun up again in 5 seconds if
necessary.  You can even leave it in the drive permanently if you want,
since it auto-yanks the heads on a power failure!
All of the disk devices (DECtape, LINCtape through the server, RK, RX,
1.2 Mbyte floppy, 80 meg winchester, Syquest 555) are bootable.  Only
the DECtape and RK and RX are DEC "standard", but OS/8 is
user-configurable for anything, and P?S/8 (my system, not DEC's)
supports all of them as well.
I also have a DECMATE II with MS-DOS and also a VICTOR 9000 and several
PCs which also have the SyQuest 555s.  Of course, I have KERMIT running
EVERYWHERE to transfer files between all the machines.  In the winter,
my oil bills drop and my electric bill rises when I turn everything on
at once!  My building is blessed with 3-phase power, so I would not
rule out a PDP-10 in the future... (Long live the true ZORK!)
cjl (lasner@cunixf, lasner@watsun)

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:20:03 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [[email-masked]: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List]

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:20:03 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [[email-masked]: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List]

Return-Path: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 90 19:03:49 EDT
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Jun 90 12:03:28 EST

Hope you get this...
Are you familiar with KERMIT-12; if you are that will cut through a
lot...
The volume of stuff is not high compared to some other subject matter,
but how about contacting some of those sites that are still looking for
a purpose that are found in those ftp.sites files around the net?
I found one which has nothing but .gif files 1 month after they claimed
to be purposeless...
I am still very active in the 12-bit world, and I have very interested
friends, only one of which is on the net: [email-masked]
(or is it sunrise.syr.acs.edu?) Mark Hyde of Syracuse University and
DECUS.  He is attempting to get DEC to cough it all up, and I have been
looking for certain things for years which I can use in modified form,
especially since I may be one of the last people actively doing the
modifying!  My friends were of course the -8 and -12 support group, but
mostly have left DEC for less boring pastures (sometimes at less
$money!).  I have many files, and some ideas on how to get them to the
net and off of it on the -8's themselves.  (Again, see K12mit release
files here in ~kermit/d/k12*.* .)
The SyQuest is REALLY great.  The drives have just been "liberated"
from Hamilton-Avnet's exclusive distributorship by SyQuest cancelling
their contract, so the street price may now be lower than the list
price.  The price may also drop, since they announced a 3.5" version! 
That tiny beast is still vaporware probably 'til October, but they are
working on it...  The SQ555 lists for $995 quantity one and the
cartridges are $115 each quantity one.  Ask someone like Data Storage
Marketing in Colorado for a newer price (hopefully better).  I would
guess that the 3.5" cousin will be $60 a cartridge and list for $500
and all else will be equal, except they tell me that the seek time is
BETTER for the little one!  There is also a vicious rumor that a
replacement 5-1/4" beast will appear that will hold 100 MEGS!
The real problem is that the only PDP-8 standard way to use these
things is with CESI MDC8 intelligent SCSI host adapters.  Gary Wagner
wants way too much for them, listing them for something like $1250 each
quantity one.  I got mine from a client of mine who is an OEM customer
of CESI and they bought over 500 of them for something like $600 each
several years ago.  The guy has to come down eventually, but...
My software makes the drives look like a succession of partitions each
of which is a maximal OS/8 or P?S/8 device.  You assemble the handler
for which hunk(s) of disk you want to talk to.  For example, you get
RDA0-7 on the first 16 Megs and RDB0-7 on the next 16 MEGS, etc.  My
winchester disk looks like WNA0-7, WNB0-7, WNC0-7, etc.  You really
have to run BUILD a whole lot to get around!

BTW, I also have the SAME drive on my PC using an OMTI 412 host adapter
(non-intelligent) using a custom rom my friend and I whipped up.  The
drive is in an "external" case and moves with the cable.  Our format is
universal and is designed to work under MENU-8 (my proprietary
operating system operating system loader, sort of like DECmate Master
Menu), or with BIOS ROM support, make the device be liked by MS-DOS!
Neat?
Of course, you have to read your own stuff on the drive raw, but they
do like each other...  I use it to transfer raw data between PCs and
-8s for laboratory purposes at one of my clients' lab.

If you are REAL CRAZY, you could write a primitive driver and slow
read/write handler for OS/8 by sticking into field 7 and lower the core
size as was done by Mark Hyde so OS/8 could read/write DECtapes on the
PDP-12, so the code size wouldn't be a problem, and then use the dr-8e
digital i/o board with a strange connectorto talk SCSI.  It's all
open-collector bus and asynchronous, etc., and I believe there is
enough bits on the DR-8/E to do it right without building hardware
other than the funny cable, but it would be much slower than the DMA of
the MDC8, not to mention REAL hard to boot thus requiring another
device to run from first.  I have built machines with only CESI MDC8
and its floppies and winchester as the only boot device and they get
real small by any standards; try putting a small external box and an
-8/m box together with the MDC8 and an -8/a processor in the box, and
you'll see that this ain't much different in total size than a PC!
I would like to put an omnibus into a tower case.  Any suggestions on
how to get the mechanicals done and any power supply problems overcome?
Then I would have a real PC-8!
I wuld also like to attract the attention of the likes of Bernie Eiben
and company to this forum, so we can get from DEC the lost DECmate
stuff so I can straighten out that mess.  I will eventually figure it
all out even if I have to disassemble the boot roms and the slushware,
but wouldn't it be more productive if they just gave it to us?
A sympathetic voice still in DEC (alas powerless!) is Roland Lussier,
and he is net-reachable, but I have to find his net address, (not
handy).
cjl (still mumbling octal after all these years: *30 ; 6743; 5031;LA
30,clear,continue, boot)

Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 18:47:51 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [[email-masked]: I will not take credit/blame

Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 18:47:51 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [[email-masked]: I will not take credit/blame

where undue...]

Return-Path: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 16:51:28 EDT
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [[email-masked]: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers
        Mailing List]
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:19:19 EST

I wil not take credit/blame where undue.  I am part of the Brooklyn
Poly DEC Dynasty (that's not a name, merely a description; there are
other more "official" names).  This group is responsible for (at least)
the following PDP-8-related projects:
MS-8 (aka R-L monitor system)
P?S/8 (descendent of above)
Poly Basic (yeh, the Poly is Brooklyn Poly as in EduSystem 30 and 15)
Poly Snobol
String Language-8
Dibol (ultimately COS's of various descriptions, but not recently)
PS/8, later OS/8, 12, 78, 278, etc.
Toy (later known as SRT-8 and then renamed RTS-8)

My addled brain may have caused a few to slip by, but...

My main project is P?S/8, the main "alternate operating system" for the
PDP-8; even OS/8 can't make the following claim:
P?S/8 will run on any suitably configured PDP-8/12.  If the media
chosen is RX01 single-density, THAT DISKETTE will bootstrap on ANY of
the following machines:
PDP-8 or LINC-8 (with DW8E-N)
PDP-8/I with DW8E (N or P as necessary; yes there are positive buss
8/i's!)
PDP-8/L (with DW8E-P)
PDP-12 (with DW8E-P)
PDP-8/E,F,M,A
VT-78
VT-278 (DECmate (I))
PC-278 (DECmate II) with RX78 option
InterSil Intercept with DSD-210 option
PCM-12 with DSD-210 option
Any other homebrew truly compatible with RX01 machines (some 6100's no
doubt)

Get it straight, I don't mean that a "version" of the system runs on
any of the above (theoretically, some member or members of the OS/8
family actually run on the above), I mean that the ACTUAL FLOPPY IN
YOUR HAND can boot on any of these.  My point is that the various
versions of OS/8 have "burned their bridges behind them" and only some
releases work on some machines, and they have different quirks.  This
ultimately was caused by the loss of the Poly people in DEC, and
creeping into the code such things as BSW instead of (RTL;RTL;RTL or
RTR;RTR;RTR as necessary) by those ill-skilled in the art of sticking
to straight generic PDP-8 code (which is really no great feat: No
IAC/ROTATE combinations, no BSW, no MQ-related instructions, etc.). 
Some people were hired without instructions in this area, and they then
just phased-out "pre-omnibus machines", coincidentally just after
promoting the DW8E so the RK-8/F (RK-8/E with a few add/deletes) could
work on the older machines. (Sell the hardware then obsolete the
software; can someone give us the KA/KI-10 equivalent story?)

Does anyone know the littany of PAL10?  I haven't used it in years (no
TOPS-10 or -20 systems available!) and I would like to discuss it's
shortcomings, quirks and features.

A programmer's challenge:

Using any "standard" language available somewhere on some
non-IBM-mainframe (no 360's or descendants, please!) write the minimum
program that, when executed, yields a printout of the source program
itself.  (Note, a (minimal?) solution to this problem has been
implemented in FORTRAN) (I have a shorter solution that runs on the
PDP-8.)

Charles Lasner (cjl)
lasner@cunixf or lasner@watsun
PS: The FORTRAN solution is not accomplished in one line.

Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:39:16 EDT
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: testing the return path

Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:39:16 EDT
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: testing the return path

Did this get through are sacred mail program at cunixf?
RSVP
cjl

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 09:58:40 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: testing the return path

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 09:58:40 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: Charles Lasner's message of Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:39:16 EDT <[email-masked]>
Subject: testing the return path

   From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>

   Did this get through are sacred mail program at cunixf?

yup

From: "Robert E. Seastrom" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:03:57 EDT
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: subscribe

From: "Robert E. Seastrom" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:03:57 EDT
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: Lane's message of Sat, 30 Jun 90 22:42:22 PDT <[email-masked]>
Subject: subscribe

           *** Welcome to the PDP8-LOVERS mailing list! ***

    This mailing list exists in order to facilitate communication and 
cooperation between owners of vintage DEC computers, specifically, but not 
limited to, the PDP-8 series of minicomputers.  Discussions of all manner of 
hardware, software, programming techniques are invited.  People who don't
own vintage DEC hardware, but have an interest in it (used to hack on them,
designed them, whatever...) are encouraged to join, as well as people who
use PDP-8 computers on a regular basis.  We are currently working on finding
a site to host archives of PDP-8 software and make them FTP-able.

Postings:  Mail postings to [email-masked] (note new address!)

Problems/Changes: Mail to [email-masked]

Thank you for your interest in PDP8-LOVERS!

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 10:09:03 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: another test...

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 10:09:03 EST
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: another test...

With luck, I have now gotten rid of all addresses that were bouncing
mail.

                                        ---Rob

Date: Mon 9 Jul 90 02:24:05
From: Johnny Billquist <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: testing the return path
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]

Date: Mon 9 Jul 90 02:24:05
From: Johnny Billquist <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: testing the return path
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>

Yep, the message went through, if you didn't already know.

	Johnny

Date: Sat 14 Jul 90 19:03:21
From: Johnny Billquist <[email-masked]>
Subject: From C. Lasner
To: [email-masked]

Date: Sat 14 Jul 90 19:03:21
From: Johnny Billquist <[email-masked]>
Subject: From C. Lasner
To: [email-masked]

The following was recieved from Charles Lasner.
I didn't edit any of it, since I don't see what should be left
out, and what should be left in, so here is all of it. (I wasn't
born as an editor, sorry.)
By the way, this was a side track of a discussion between
him an me, so "I" is Lasner, and "you" is myself (Johnny).

------------------------------------------------------------

You can do a whole lot of really good stuff with SCSI.  I have designed
a "master" system for the -8 called MENU-8.  It is designed to deal
with the problems of a partitionable large disk which could be
removable.  The SCSI buss on my 8/E has an 80 Meg fixed disk and a 45
Meg removable cartridge disk that resembles a miniature RK05.  It even
SOUNDS like an RK05 when you hit the big hub on the bottom with the
hard sector marks!  It's scary, but we even have -8's in tower cases,
almost like pc's.

I wrote a system for multiple users about 9 years ago; it actively
supported 40 tasks; each was concerned with moving some files either
into or out of a common data base on an RK05.  This is yet another
stand-alone operating system complete with utilities.  I ran out of
room in 32k!  The directory is a sort-ordered balanced binary tree to
minimize lookup time on thousands of relatively petty files for a news
wire system.  All I/O is queued, with disk I/O supporting 8-level
priority, system-wide 8-level message sending priority, etc.  There is
a master scheduler and multi-user serially reentrant/reusable code. 
The entire system needed to maintain merely an 8-level stack for each
user, which is swapped merely by maintaining an index register
(000017).  Job variables consisted of locations 000020-000077, so you
move the job's variables to/from 000017-000077 and then restart them. 
No time slicing exists, so each task "hogs" the machine until it can't
continue, so it exits to the scheduler with the appropriate resource
wait bit set.  All disk buffers are pooled, and all directory elements
and message queue elements are sharable if compatible protection bits
are presented.  Thus multiple jobs could process the same file in
"read-only" mode, or if one job was writing the data with read allowed,
or updating could be done with read denied until status changed to
queued for writing, etc.  Much of these ideas come from TOPS-10, which
is a far better source of good design ideas...

I will pull rank on you here:  I have loved the PDP-8 since 1968; The
particular machine I started on was the one that Richard Lary wore out
the front panel switches on; we replaced them.  I also rewired the lamp
panel leads which tended to break off, and replaced NUMEROUS of the
soldered-in bulbs.  I made this machine work after DEC said it was too
expensive; they doubted it could ever work again.  This machine didn't
work because of obscure problems with shorted isolation diodes in the
lamp driver lead runs.  The capacitive coupling of the wires made the
machine randomly fail.  Also the diodes were prone to the paint being
scratched off of the glass; these diodes are photo-sensitive and become
REAL leaky in moderate to strong light, so the machine originally only
worked in darkness!
All of the machines we work on became commercially popular ultimately
because of Richard Lary, and the software ideas he wrote or spawned. 
They were all developed on this machine:  4k, ONE DECtape drive,
teletype, d-a convertor, a-d convertor, oscilloscope,PT08 and extra
teletype (which "wandered" around and had to be retrieved
periodically), home-made interface to IBM 360 2701 device, home-made
music register, EAE (PDP-8 style, not 8/I or E!).  I made it work again
after they all gave up on it.  TLC is not an -8 instruction, but it is
a necessity!
BTW, please edit the appropriate history part of this letter, and post
it back to PDP8-LOVERS, thanx
cjl