Subject: Help needed with scrambled pdp8
From: [email-masked] (peter kevin lund)
To: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 22:50:37 PDT

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 22:50:37 PDT
From: [email-masked] (peter kevin lund)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Help needed with scrambled pdp8

Hi, I hope I got this address right - well, if you're seeing this it
must have not been too bad...anyway...

I got a pdp-8/f through the mail a while ago as something to tinker with;
unfortunately, it was very heavy so the seller disassembled it before
shipping.  The gross anatomy was easy enough to reconstitute, but the
problem is the boards.  They have these connections that run across the
top and adjacent boards can be connected with these blocks...well, I don't
suppose I need describe them here.

So, the problem is that this guy pulled all the boards out and put them in
a box with the connector blocks but he didn't note which boards were
connected with which!  There are a dozen or so boards (+panel), and I don't
dare connect them randomly to see what works.  So, if anybody on this list
is familiar with how these systems go together and has a bit of time to
spend discussing it, I'd be grateful.

Then there's the question of what to do once it's up, since there's no
mass storage, no OS, etc.  But first things first...thanks!

  Kevin Lund ([email-masked])

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 92 18:35:16 PDT
From: [email-masked] (peter kevin lund)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: The 8/f lives! (well, sorta...)

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 92 18:35:16 PDT
From: [email-masked] (peter kevin lund)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: The 8/f lives! (well, sorta...)

Thanks to all who responded; my 8/f now seems to be running after a
fashion.  So here's my next round of questions:

First off, here's what I have going:

  cpu set composed of M8330, M9310, and M8300
  two sets of G104, G227, and core board
  M8320 ('bus loads')
  M849 (rf shield)

Then the unknown stuff:
  
  M837 ?? bunch of chips on a board...
  M8655 seems to be an I/O card
  M1705 definately a dual I/O card

Unfortunately, I have no idea what the signal formats of the I/O cards
are; the cables that fit the M1705 end in flat cards with maybe 5 or 6
fingers to the inch (fingers as in these look like they'd plug into slots
of some sort).

As for the front panel, I have a rough idea of how it works - a few of the
switches are kinda mysterious (dep, sw).  And, worst of all, the front
panel has a lock which I have no key to!  So I had to jam the switch into
the on position but that gives me no control over the power except from
the power strip.  Ok, so that's not the worst thing, but it is annoying.
Did these have standardized keys?

Anyway, I guess what I'm looking for is an explanation of the three
mystery cards and some info on connecting a terminal and some sort of
mass storage.  I can get a set of dec 8" floppies (RX02 as I recall);
beyond that it's somewhat iffy...

As always, thanks for any help...

  Kevin Lund ([email-masked])

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1992 3:17:43 MET DST
From: Johnny Billquist <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked] (peter kevin lund)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: The 8/f lives! (well, sorta...) 

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1992 3:17:43 MET DST
From: Johnny Billquist <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked] (peter kevin lund)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: The 8/f lives! (well, sorta...) 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 19 Jun 92 18:35:16 PDT 

>  cpu set composed of M8330, M9310, and M8300
>  two sets of G104, G227, and core board
>  M8320 ('bus loads')
>  M849 (rf shield)

Good working!

>Then the unknown stuff:
>  
>  M837 ?? bunch of chips on a board...
>  M8655 seems to be an I/O card
>  M1705 definately a dual I/O card

Hmmm, this is from memory, so I'm not 100% sure, but I think that the M8655
is the KL8-JA, which is an asynch. port.

>Unfortunately, I have no idea what the signal formats of the I/O cards
>are; the cables that fit the M1705 end in flat cards with maybe 5 or 6
>fingers to the inch (fingers as in these look like they'd plug into slots
>of some sort).

I can maybe check the M1705 out, but you really want the M8655 running
first.

>As for the front panel, I have a rough idea of how it works - a few of the
>switches are kinda mysterious (dep, sw).  And, worst of all, the front
>panel has a lock which I have no key to!  So I had to jam the switch into
>the on position but that gives me no control over the power except from
>the power strip.  Ok, so that's not the worst thing, but it is annoying.
>Did these have standardized keys?

Well, DEP is Deposit. You use it to write stuff into memory.
The principle is easy. Check that the machine is halted (no RUN-light).
Set the switches to an address, 0200 (octal) for example. Press Load Address.
Then set the switches to what data you would like to write into that
memory location and lift deposit. The address will be incremented
automatically, so you can do several deposits into consecutive memory
locations. Good for writing programs...

Well, anyway, here is a short program to write out every character
to the TTY (Goos for testing the 8655).

Address	Data	Code		Comments

200	7001	IAC		Increment acumulator
201	6046	TLS		Transmit AC to TTY.
202	6041	TSF		Skip if TTY ready.
203	5202	JMP	202	Repeat if not ready.
204	5200	JMP	200	Do next character.

>Anyway, I guess what I'm looking for is an explanation of the three
>mystery cards and some info on connecting a terminal and some sort of
>mass storage.  I can get a set of dec 8" floppies (RX02 as I recall);
>beyond that it's somewhat iffy...
>
>As always, thanks for any help...

Hope this is to some help. Let me know if you need more help, I can look
through me stuff at home to get more info for you. I have a few pdp8
myself...

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: [email-masked]       ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 92 12:44:21 EDT
From: [email-masked] (Larry Stone)
To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: Re: The 8/f lives! (well, sorta...)
Cc: [email-masked]

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 92 12:44:21 EDT
From: [email-masked] (Larry Stone)
To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: Re: The 8/f lives! (well, sorta...)
Cc: [email-masked]

> >Then the unknown stuff:
> >
> >  M837 ?? bunch of chips on a board...
> >  M8655 seems to be an I/O card
> >  M1705 definately a dual I/O card
>
> Hmmm, this is from memory, so I'm not 100% sure, but I think that the M8655
> is the KL8-JA, which is an asynch. port.

Yes, it's a later asynch serial I/O board.  It's basically an RS-232 port.
The DIP switches determine the speed and IOT device code.  I've got the
switch assignments written down somewhere, and will post them if nobody on
this list beats me to it.

> >Unfortunately, I have no idea what the signal formats of the I/O cards
> >are; the cables that fit the M1705 end in flat cards with maybe 5 or 6
> >fingers to the inch (fingers as in these look like they'd plug into slots
> >of some sort).

I'm not sure, and most of my DEC library is still packed, but that sounds
like it might be a "positive I/O bus interface".  It's intended to
interface with peripherals designed for older pdp-8 models (like the '8/I).
Some boards have a brief description printed in copper traces on one of the
vertical edges of the solder side of the board, so look there.

I believe the M837 is the memory extension and time-share controller.  It
shouldn't have any external connections.  Just plug it in behind the CPU.
(The ground plane goes between the CPU & stuff and the memory).  The M837
lets the system address more than 4K of core, which it is probably trying to
do if you have more than one core stack in there, so I suggest plugging it in.

> >Did these have standardized keys?

Yes, a lot, if not all, the DEC computers with barrel keys had the same
key.  Other people on the list can quote the number on it :-).  If ACE
Lock is still in business, they might even be able to provide you with
one.  VAX-11/750's and '730s, and I think some pdp-11's, had that key.
Later VAXen had a simplified plastic key that Field Circus was good at
breaking off in the lock.

I'd also suggest contacting DEC to see if they will still sell you
a copy of "Introduction to Programming".  It's an excellent tutorial on
machine-language programming on the pdp-8.  The latest vintage also had
instructions for operating the 8/e (same as 8/f) front panel.  Introduction
to Programming has got to be one of the greatest computer books of all time.

    -- Larry

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 92 23:21:08 EDT
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Some recent Omnibus info needed

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 92 23:21:08 EDT
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Some recent Omnibus info needed

    To correct a few little things:

    The M837 is indeed the 8/e/f/m Extended Memory and Time-share
control card.  The jumper is to enable the time-share trap.

    The ground plane card goes in front of the front-most core plane in
the back of the machine.  The KA8E and or KD8E are allowed immediately
behind the rear-most core plane, just in front of the M8320 terminator
in the very last socket.  I have also found that KL8E's running
low-speed terminals can go there as well.  Avoid high-speed stuff such
as RK8E, or even RX8E (high-speed logic there, even though RX's are a
low-throughput device) in these slots possibly between core and the
terminator.  Besides, DMA devices such as RK8E should go between the CPU
and the memory anyway.

    The M170x cards are the so-called "foundation" modules, and are
merely a poor, early, and expensive ill-thought-out way to interface to
the Omnibus using positive-bus-style of construction.  The cards are
provided with cables just like the KA8E and KD8E so that you would think
to construct the "main" portion of your proposed device on wire-wrapped
green blocks.  Thus, these cards are the interface between the main
structure and the external device.  This philosophy rapidly gave way to
the notion that the entire device fits on the "spare" real-estate of the
module itself, next to the minimal buss interface.  Thus, a
self-contained card was more useful than a mechanically inefficient
interface-only card such as these.

    So, the user with the M170x card doesn't have a device, merely an
undefined bus interface to "something".

    The M8655 is real easy to setup:

    There is a baud rate selector.  Just set it to the octal number 0
through 7:

    0=	110
    1=	150
    2=	300
    3=	600
    4=	1200
    5=	2400
    6=	4800
    7=	9600 OR 19200.

    The card is normally delivered with 7=9600, but if you change a
2-of-3 set to the other way (soldered jumpers I think called W11 W12;
it's the only "3-way" jumper on the card) then 7=19200.  The print calls
for a "special" uart, but this is merely to select for better than 1968
junky GI uarts :-).  Virtually every SMC uart by then was fine for 19200
or even 38400.

    There is also a jumper to enable the errors/status into the
high-order bits of KRS and KRB.  There is also a software interlock on
this function as you have to do 6035 with bit 10 set (11 is still for
interrupt enable as well) to enable it as well as the jumper.  This
jumper is clearly marked.

    The single jumper in the top center of the card is a quirkily
implemented kludge for the VT05:  The VT05 requires 1/60 second after a
LF to recover.  You can send nulls as fills during this time if desired,
as they are ignored.  The point is to delay sending anything of
significence.  Note that on 50 Hz systems this becomes 1/50 second.  The
point is that the jumper causes the card to actually send the 4 nulls!
(and thus is incorrect for 50 Hz and 2400 baud!)  This is acceptable as
a kludge to allow the VT05 to be compatible at 2400, but would have been
better served if the flag were merely held up for a variable time
setting (1/50, 1/60, etc.), not four synchronized nulls at the current
baud rate!  (I once hooked it up to a teletype; a real scream to watch
it chug out nulls :-).)

    There are jumpers to make the receive baud rate 150 baud instead of
equaling the transmit rate.  (The VT05 has r=150, t=1200, and r=150,
t=2400 among others)  Also there are jumpers to set parity and whether
it's even or odd.  Note that these are not directly jumpers to the UART,
so that odd parity means 8 bits and no parity means 8 bits also.  (The
uart chip could do 7 bits with no parity, or 8 bits with a parity or
even 9 bits: 8 bits and even or odd parity above that!  The jumpers all
go to auxiliary logic that always choses a final result of an 8-bit data
pattern overall.)

    The device code is a real snap  Just setup the switches so they read
correctly: the receive code is the middle six bits of the IOT, and the
transmit is likewise on another set of six.  So, for a console terminal,
the correct settings are:

    (03 and 04) R= 0 0 0 0 1 1     t= 0 0 0 1 0 0

    The KL8JA is interesting regarding current loop:  While technically
active, thus requiring a passive loop receiver in a terminal (the norm),
the KL8JA (which has no switches for this) can also talk to another
KL8JA.  No special wiring is needed for this: just two two-wire loops
connecting the cards using the same cable that would go to a
current-loop terminal such as a VT05  (flat mate-n-lok connectors
(AMP).)

cjl

Date: Wed, 24 Jun 92 17:28:56 CDT
From: Douglas W. Jones <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Newbie

Date: Wed, 24 Jun 92 17:28:56 CDT
From: Douglas W. Jones <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Newbie

I've just acquired an Industrial 8 (that's really an 8/E, 1974 vintage)
and a PDP-8/F (1975 vintage) on the surplus market for a song ($15 for
the both).

I need one each of the yellow and orange keyswitch handles from the front
panel of the 8/F, if anyone has a bunged up front panel that they're willing
to pull switches from.

I need the key to the ace lock on the front panel of the 8/E (it's currently
locked in the off position), but that's something I'll have to pursue the
alt.locksmithing newsgroup for.

I need a lid for my 8/E, but I think it'll run just fine without.

I'm desparate for a translation between the M numbers on the handles of the
boards I have and the real names of the parts.  I also need to know the
pinouts on the interface cards, since many cables are missing.  I assume
I'd get this kind of stuff from the Small Computer Handbook, but I don't
have a copy.

I have no peripherals (except an ADM 31, when I can figure out the cable),
but I may be able to pick things up at the surplus place, so I'll have to
go back regularly to keep up with what they have in stock.  They have a
broken RX02 8" floppy drive, with a sticker saying "Needs new stepper" on
it.  I don't think they have the necessary interface board to hook it to
the 8, though.
					Doug Jones
					[email-masked]

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 92 10:01:14 CDT
From: Douglas W. Jones <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Gunk

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 92 10:01:14 CDT
From: Douglas W. Jones <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Gunk

I've started going over the 8/F I got, after it failed the smoke test (when
I plugged it in, it made smoke out of its power supply).  A small wire in
the supply that went to a test point on the outside melted, due to a short
circuit, but no damage seems to have occurred, other than a need to replace
the wire.

Anyway, the worst thing I found is that the soft foam that DEC liked to use
for various purposes inside their cabinets has turned to gunk.  Most of the
rest of the stuff looks like new, except for the dust and one place where
the supply has overheated and cooked its PC board a bit (I suspect because
of a poorly lubricated muffin fan that I opened up and oiled).

I wonder if the reason the lid is missing from the 8/F is because it was
also lined with disgusting gunky foam.  I remember working with an 11/20 in
1973 that had a nice stiff foam to push the flip-chips into the backplane,
and I think the gunk I'm dealing with must be what the stuff turns to after
17 years.

Has anyone got any useful suggestions about removal, replacement, or ignoring
the gunk?  It comes off with a putty knife, leaving a sticky residue behind
that seems to resist all attempts at removal.

					Doug Jones
					[email-masked]

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1992 10:36:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Anthony A. Datri" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Gunk

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1992 10:36:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Anthony A. Datri" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Gunk
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>

>Anyway, the worst thing I found is that the soft foam that DEC liked to use
>for various purposes inside their cabinets has turned to gunk

This is fairly common.  I had an 8/L once that came with a pair of
DF32's that were replete with this goo.

>It comes off with a putty knife, leaving a sticky residue behind
>that seems to resist all attempts at removal.

Try isopropyl  alcohol.  If that doesn't work, get somewhere ventilated
and try acetone.  If *that* doesn't work, I'd just live with it -- you
could try methyl chloride, but that's really evil stuff to work with.

======================================================8--<
"Future events such as these will affect you, in the future."

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 92 14:01:29 CDT
From: Douglas W. Jones <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: ~jones/printme8

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 92 14:01:29 CDT
From: Douglas W. Jones <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: ~jones/printme8

Today, I bought what may be the remainder of what I need for a real
system at the surplus place.  I got 2 RX01's (one broken, a source of
parts for the other) and a PDP-8/A (that looks like someone used a hammer
to unplug some of the cables).  The latter, I bought only for the interface
card for the disk drive (M8357?).  The unusual thing about the purchase is
that I also got the maintenance manual for the RX01; that's almost against
the rules of the surplus business!  Total cost, $10.

Anyway, as a result of the purchase of the 8A, I have some bits and pieces
I definitely don't need!

1) Hex wide cards (memory, I'm guessing) with nice levers for pulling them:

   M8316 x 1
   M8317 x 1
   M8417 x 2

2) PDP 8/A front panel, ripped from whatever it was glued to, and with the
connectors to the cables from the CPU bunged up by the way they were
unplugged (with the same claw hammer that was used to rip the panel from
wherever it was glued, I'm betting).  The panel has a form fitting plastic
dust cover with a cutout area over the numeric keypad.

3) Power supply and box for 8/A.

I'm probably going to keep the M8300, M8310, M8320 and M8330 cards that
came with the 8A as spares for the 8E and 8F.

					Doug Jones
					[email-masked]

Date: Tue, 30 Jun 92 12:57:55 EDT
From: [email-masked] (Larry Stone)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: pdp8 books for sale

Date: Tue, 30 Jun 92 12:57:55 EDT
From: [email-masked] (Larry Stone)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: pdp8 books for sale

I just saw this on the net.  The pdp-8 books this fellow is selling would
be useful to anyone with an Omnibus '8 and/or running OS/8.  I already have
a copy of each..

From bu.edu!rpi!think.com!spdcc!jin Mon Jun 29 16:12:45 EDT 1992
Article: 1108 of comp.org.decus
Xref: icad ne.forsale:7455 comp.org.decus:1108 comp.sys.dec:7807
Path: icad!bu.edu!rpi!think.com!spdcc!jin
From: [email-masked] (Jerry Natowitz)
Newsgroups: ne.forsale,comp.org.decus,comp.sys.dec
Subject: Books and Software for sale - MSDOS, PDP 8, 11, and VAX
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: 27 Jun 92 15:48:49 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Lines: 112

All books paperbound and in good to excellent condition unless noted.
Prices are not post-paid, and are negotiable within reason.
Please respond by email or call 617-965-5734 before 9:30 PM

General and Computer Science

System/370 Reference Summary				$1

Assembler Language Programming The IBM System 360 and 370
2nd edition - Struble  (hardcover, fair condition)	$3

The Practical Guide to Structured Systems Design
Page-Jones						$5

A Introduction to Database Systems 2nd edition
- Date (hardcover, fair condition)			$2

Operating Systems Concepts - Peterson and Silberschatz
(hardcover)						$5

Introducing the UNIX system - McGilton and Morgan	$5

The C Programming Language 1st edition - Kernighan and
Ritchie							$5

Nutshell Handbook - Programming with Curses		$5

Microsoft Quick Reference: The Norton Utilities		$3

Programming in C - Kochan				$5

Teach Yourself C - Schildt				$8

S - A Language and System for Data Analysis		$4

All General Books				Total  $38

MS-DOS Books and Software

Windows International Developers Conference Course Notebook
Volumes 1 and 2 (11/91)					$8

Microsoft Quick C 2.5				       $15

Windows 3.0 Programming Primer - Southerton (1 disk)   $10

Andrew Tobias Managing Your Money 5.0			$7

Hoyle Book of Games volume 1				$3

Lotus 123 2.3 - Docs only				$7

Microsoft GW-BASIC Docs only (ring bound)		$4

All MS-DOS Books and Software			Total  $41

PDP-8 Books (don't smirk :-)

OS/8 Handbook First Printing (1974) (fair cond.)	$5

Small computer Handbook (8/e, 8/m, 8/f)			$3

All PDP-8 Books					Total	$6 

PDP-11 Books

LSI-11 Reference card					$1

RSX-11M Pocket Reference (3.1)				$1

Peripheral and Interfacing Handbook (1972)		$2

PDP 11/45 Processor Handbook (1973)			$2

PDP-11 Peripherals Handbook (1976) (fair cond.)		$2

PDP 11/34 Processor Handbook (1976) (poor cond.)	$1

PDP 11/70 Processor Handbook (1977)			$2

PDP-11 Architecture handbook (1983)			$3

All PDP-11 Books				Total  $11 

Vax Books

VAX-11 Programming Card					$1

EDT Quick Reference Guide				$2

VAX Software Handbook (1980)				$2

VAX Architecture Handbook (1981)			$2

VAX Hardware Handbook (1982)				$2

Terminals and Printer Handbook (1885)			$2

VAX Hardware Handbook vol 1 (1986)			$2

All VAX Books					Total   $9

-- 
     Jerry Natowitz
     Guest user on:
ARPA [email-masked]
UUCP {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!jin